City butcher license, 1969
(Call number: )
Oral history interview with Christine W. Banks
J. P. Crowder Delicatessen
Christine Wilkins Banks was born in North Carolina but came to Richmond when she was around four years old. In 1953 she began as a counter worker at J. P. Crowder's Delicatessen, which had been founded by John P. Crowder in 1919. The Delicatessen specialized in hams that were sold in the store and by mail order along with other southern foods. In 1960, Ms. Banks began managing the business for Crowder, then seventy-two and suffering from emphysema. About a year later she discovered that he was negotiating to sell the business to a longtime customer. She wondered why she was being overlooked and surmised that it was because she was black and a woman. So she spoke to Crowder, which resulted in his cancelling his deal and selling the business to her in 1965. He even allowed her to pay over time and worked for her awhile to see that things went well with the business. For many years there were four full-time employees, with seven to nine part-time workers hired for the Christmas season. But urban exodus and changing eating habits adversely affected Ms. Banks business. After suffering a heart attack in 1988, she discontinued the mail order business, and by 1992 Ms. Banks was the only employee. The business ended with Christine Banks's retirement in 2005. She had managed, however, to become a property investor, and the old deli building was leased once she closed down the deli. Ms. Banks died on July 19, 2010.
About this interview
Date of interview: November 28, 2006
Interview by: Mary Virginia Currie
Call number: Mss3 C8858a
Audio excerpt: Length: 0:12:39 | Format: MP3 audio
(Note: audio file contains several excerpts from the interview)
Transcription:
[Mr. J. P. Crowder is in failing health with emphysema and is looking for a person to buy his Delicatessen. Ms. Banks, the manager of the store, explains to Mary Virginia Currie the terms of her agreement with Mr. Crowder to take ownership of Crowder's Delicatessen.]
Banks:
So it was getting worse so he had to do something, so about two years after that he came to me and asked me if I was interested and he gave me a proposition of how much he would sell the business to me for and how I could pay him and everything. And of course naturally like a loan if you default on it they can ask you for everything that you have put up: your home, your car, or money or whatnot. You default and they can take it all away after so many months or so many weeks or whatnot. So after listening to him and everything I decided to take a--. That was all I knew so I decided yes, I'll do it. I had a '66 Olds, I had two children, I had my bungalow that I started to buy when my husband died because I had a ten cent life policy on him, accidental death or, you know, if he died, and I got about four thousand dollars off of that. That was a ten cent policy. The insurance people used to come to his mother's house on Baker Street and I never even gave it a thought one way or the other, so they got me to take out this insurance on him and that's what I got, accidental death, and it was four thousand dollars. [end 02:01:51] It might have been a little bit over or a little bit under but it was around four thousand dollars and that's what I bought the house with. That's what I bought the house with, where I'm at now.
And of course, getting back to Mr. Crowder and the business, I had the house. Of course I was still paying the note and everything but I had to put that up for collateral. I had a '66 Olds. That was all paid for. I put that up. And then of course the two children. [Laughs]
Q:
[Laughs]
Banks:
So but anyway, he sold it to me for fifteen thousand dollars, the business, not the building. He rented the building. That was just for his business. He sold it for fifteen thousand dollars. I was to send him a check, a hundred dollars a week every week for three years until the business was paid for.
Banks:
Yes. Um, we had—now we had liquids and we had dries. Of course, you know, they—but it was handled exactly the same way. They came down an assembly line, and then over the years we got in all of this automatic machinery that we just didn't have to touch much of anything. We had to sit at certain positions along the line to watch the product as it was being packaged to make sure that machine was working exactly the way it was supposed to be working and everything was being done exactly the way the company wanted it to be done.
Q:
And you didn't have to give him a large amount in the beginning.
Banks:
No, uh uh. I don't think so.
Q:
That was a blessing, I would think.
Banks:
No, uh uh, I don't--. No, I don't think so.
Q:
That would have been hard to do,--
Banks:
Yeah, uh uh, yeah, because--.
Q:
--for you to have gotten--.
Banks:
Well I did have a few dollars but I don't think I had to give him anything up front, except for when he said I would start paying him that, and of course I sent that check out there to him by Robert every week, and if I defaulted on that he could call for it I don't know whether it was within so many weeks. I know it was within so many weeks but how many, whether it was a few months or weeks or what, but anyway they all have that, and then he could have taken my house, you know, he could have sold it, and whatever balance that I owed.
Q:
Did you ever find it hard to come up with the hundred dollars a week?
Banks:
No, not really, because we had a good business [end b 02:04:01], and the first year that I had it--. Well I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but [start 02:04:08] the first year that I had the business, from January of '65 and when October came, well he [Mr Crowder] stayed there and worked to see how things were going after he sold it because he was interested in knowing whether or not I was going to, and of course it was also brought up--. Now once the customers, and of course the help already knew that he had sold me the business, and now this was after he sold me the business. Oh, that's right. I think Mary was there until I bought the business, I believe. I think she stayed until after I bought the business. I think she did. But you know she was so nice to me when I didn't have anything. Do you know I would have done anything that I possibly could to have kept her on, but I guess it was probably just a little bit too much. I don't know. But anyway, she was a wonderful person, and we all have our ways but she was really good to me.
But anyway, where was I at? Oh, January of '65 was when I took over the business. Oh, I know what I was getting ready to say. He said when the customers and the help--. Yeah, she was with me. She was with the business when I was manager. When the help find out that you are buying the business, he said, they might take a different attitude toward you. I was willing to take that. As I said I didn't know anything else and I had the collateral, you can call it, to buy it and the proposition that he gave me, I felt like I could handle it, because I had handled the customers. If any customers came in and he didn't want to handle them he'd send them to me: “Christine, handle it.” In other words he just made it so that I would take care of things whether I wanted to or not.
Q:
[Laughs]
Banks:
I had on the job training forceful. Anything that I said I couldn't do he pushed me to do it, and I did it, not willingly, but I did it.
Q:
That's an amazing relationship. [Laughs]
Banks:
So he said you might lose customers and you might not. So as far as I know I didn't lose any because I was already handling everything, and I think Mary left after that. I'm not sure as to when or why, but I think that was why. Oh, and come October when it was time for me to buy hams Mr. Crowder got--. What did he--? He would sharpen the knives. He always sharpened his own knives. But he left about six months after that. He would just come over and open up and then I'd come in after that.
Q:
So we've gotten in our chronology up to 1965 and you said Mr. Crowder would sharpen his own knives and he was observing how people were going to react to your ownership?
Banks:
Uh huh.
Q:
In that period of time. It was 1965.
Banks:
But they didn't. It was almost as if I didn't own it. [Laughs] They just went on the way it was, you know.
Q:
Because he still was a presence every day? You said he opened up for you--
Banks:
Yeah, uh huh.
Q:
--is that right?--in the morning.
Banks:
Yeah, because he wanted to see how things were going and where his money was coming from...
[Mr. Crowder offers to erase Ms. Banks' debt to him for the business, if she gives him back control of the deli for the three financially crucial months of the holiday season.]
Banks:
Mr. Crowder, after he had did that, shortly after that I guess he came to me and asked me if I would let him have the business for October, November, and December. [Coughs] Excuse me.
Q:
You have talked a very long time. I'm amazed.
Banks:
For October, November, and December, and if I turned the business back over to him for those three months come January of '66 he would mark the business . . . see I hadn't had it for a year; just from January of '65 up until October . . . he said he would mark, in other words, the business paid in full. . . . So I didn't know, as I said, what he had been doing, but the way he had figured it up, after December and all the inventory and everything was taken and we had sold every ham in the basement and I had to go down--. And the companies, High Grade and Gwaltney, didn't have any hams, and Luter's either, no raw hams. I went down to Siegel's market and they had some. They had all Luter's hams and they had small hams. I don't remember how many boxes it was but I bought all that they had, after selling all of those hams that we had in the basement, and I sold every one of those hams that I bought from Siegel's, and come the first of the year I didn't have any hams at all in the store.
But after I told Mr. Crowder no. That's when he decided he wasn't going to help anymore, because he knew that I wouldn't have any trouble paying him, so that's when he decided he wasn't going to sharpen the knives [Laughs] or anything anymore for me, because I might have been black and a female but I did have sense enough to know when I said no, I meant no, and I mean he didn't help me buy the hams in the basement--. When I say buy them, you know I hadn't paid for them, order them, so Lucretia and I would order this and I would order that. I had to do everything including buying the business myself. I decided all of that myself. I didn't ask Mama or Daddy, nobody, because if I had asked anybody it would have been Mama and Daddy because I didn't know of anybody else to go to to ask, and not even his sons or anything. So, after that Mr. Crowder, he decided he wasn't going to help me. He helped--. I didn't have to pay him or anything. I don't think I paid him when he came over. I don't think he did. He might have taken something; I don't know. But anyway, he didn't help me anymore after that.
Banks:
So it was getting worse so he had to do something, so about two years after that he came to me and asked me if I was interested and he gave me a proposition of how much he would sell the business to me for and how I could pay him and everything. And of course naturally like a loan if you default on it they can ask you for everything that you have put up: your home, your car, or money or whatnot. You default and they can take it all away after so many months or so many weeks or whatnot. So after listening to him and everything I decided to take a--. That was all I knew so I decided yes, I'll do it. I had a '66 Olds, I had two children, I had my bungalow that I started to buy when my husband died because I had a ten cent life policy on him, accidental death or, you know, if he died, and I got about four thousand dollars off of that. That was a ten cent policy. The insurance people used to come to his mother's house on Baker Street and I never even gave it a thought one way or the other, so they got me to take out this insurance on him and that's what I got, accidental death, and it was four thousand dollars. [end 02:01:51] It might have been a little bit over or a little bit under but it was around four thousand dollars and that's what I bought the house with. That's what I bought the house with, where I'm at now.
And of course, getting back to Mr. Crowder and the business, I had the house. Of course I was still paying the note and everything but I had to put that up for collateral. I had a '66 Olds. That was all paid for. I put that up. And then of course the two children. [Laughs]
Q:
[Laughs]
Banks:
So but anyway, he sold it to me for fifteen thousand dollars, the business, not the building. He rented the building. That was just for his business. He sold it for fifteen thousand dollars. I was to send him a check, a hundred dollars a week every week for three years until the business was paid for.
Banks:
Yes. Um, we had—now we had liquids and we had dries. Of course, you know, they—but it was handled exactly the same way. They came down an assembly line, and then over the years we got in all of this automatic machinery that we just didn't have to touch much of anything. We had to sit at certain positions along the line to watch the product as it was being packaged to make sure that machine was working exactly the way it was supposed to be working and everything was being done exactly the way the company wanted it to be done.
Q:
And you didn't have to give him a large amount in the beginning.
Banks:
No, uh uh. I don't think so.
Q:
That was a blessing, I would think.
Banks:
No, uh uh, I don't--. No, I don't think so.
Q:
That would have been hard to do,--
Banks:
Yeah, uh uh, yeah, because--.
Q:
--for you to have gotten--.
Banks:
Well I did have a few dollars but I don't think I had to give him anything up front, except for when he said I would start paying him that, and of course I sent that check out there to him by Robert every week, and if I defaulted on that he could call for it I don't know whether it was within so many weeks. I know it was within so many weeks but how many, whether it was a few months or weeks or what, but anyway they all have that, and then he could have taken my house, you know, he could have sold it, and whatever balance that I owed.
Q:
Did you ever find it hard to come up with the hundred dollars a week?
Banks:
No, not really, because we had a good business [end b 02:04:01], and the first year that I had it--. Well I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but [start 02:04:08] the first year that I had the business, from January of '65 and when October came, well he [Mr Crowder] stayed there and worked to see how things were going after he sold it because he was interested in knowing whether or not I was going to, and of course it was also brought up--. Now once the customers, and of course the help already knew that he had sold me the business, and now this was after he sold me the business. Oh, that's right. I think Mary was there until I bought the business, I believe. I think she stayed until after I bought the business. I think she did. But you know she was so nice to me when I didn't have anything. Do you know I would have done anything that I possibly could to have kept her on, but I guess it was probably just a little bit too much. I don't know. But anyway, she was a wonderful person, and we all have our ways but she was really good to me.
But anyway, where was I at? Oh, January of '65 was when I took over the business. Oh, I know what I was getting ready to say. He said when the customers and the help--. Yeah, she was with me. She was with the business when I was manager. When the help find out that you are buying the business, he said, they might take a different attitude toward you. I was willing to take that. As I said I didn't know anything else and I had the collateral, you can call it, to buy it and the proposition that he gave me, I felt like I could handle it, because I had handled the customers. If any customers came in and he didn't want to handle them he'd send them to me: “Christine, handle it.” In other words he just made it so that I would take care of things whether I wanted to or not.
Q:
[Laughs]
Banks:
I had on the job training forceful. Anything that I said I couldn't do he pushed me to do it, and I did it, not willingly, but I did it.
Q:
That's an amazing relationship. [Laughs]
Banks:
So he said you might lose customers and you might not. So as far as I know I didn't lose any because I was already handling everything, and I think Mary left after that. I'm not sure as to when or why, but I think that was why. Oh, and come October when it was time for me to buy hams Mr. Crowder got--. What did he--? He would sharpen the knives. He always sharpened his own knives. But he left about six months after that. He would just come over and open up and then I'd come in after that.
Q:
So we've gotten in our chronology up to 1965 and you said Mr. Crowder would sharpen his own knives and he was observing how people were going to react to your ownership?
Banks:
Uh huh.
Q:
In that period of time. It was 1965.
Banks:
But they didn't. It was almost as if I didn't own it. [Laughs] They just went on the way it was, you know.
Q:
Because he still was a presence every day? You said he opened up for you--
Banks:
Yeah, uh huh.
Q:
--is that right?--in the morning.
Banks:
Yeah, because he wanted to see how things were going and where his money was coming from...
[Mr. Crowder offers to erase Ms. Banks' debt to him for the business, if she gives him back control of the deli for the three financially crucial months of the holiday season.]
Banks:
Mr. Crowder, after he had did that, shortly after that I guess he came to me and asked me if I would let him have the business for October, November, and December. [Coughs] Excuse me.
Q:
You have talked a very long time. I'm amazed.
Banks:
For October, November, and December, and if I turned the business back over to him for those three months come January of '66 he would mark the business . . . see I hadn't had it for a year; just from January of '65 up until October . . . he said he would mark, in other words, the business paid in full. . . . So I didn't know, as I said, what he had been doing, but the way he had figured it up, after December and all the inventory and everything was taken and we had sold every ham in the basement and I had to go down--. And the companies, High Grade and Gwaltney, didn't have any hams, and Luter's either, no raw hams. I went down to Siegel's market and they had some. They had all Luter's hams and they had small hams. I don't remember how many boxes it was but I bought all that they had, after selling all of those hams that we had in the basement, and I sold every one of those hams that I bought from Siegel's, and come the first of the year I didn't have any hams at all in the store.
But after I told Mr. Crowder no. That's when he decided he wasn't going to help anymore, because he knew that I wouldn't have any trouble paying him, so that's when he decided he wasn't going to sharpen the knives [Laughs] or anything anymore for me, because I might have been black and a female but I did have sense enough to know when I said no, I meant no, and I mean he didn't help me buy the hams in the basement--. When I say buy them, you know I hadn't paid for them, order them, so Lucretia and I would order this and I would order that. I had to do everything including buying the business myself. I decided all of that myself. I didn't ask Mama or Daddy, nobody, because if I had asked anybody it would have been Mama and Daddy because I didn't know of anybody else to go to to ask, and not even his sons or anything. So, after that Mr. Crowder, he decided he wasn't going to help me. He helped--. I didn't have to pay him or anything. I don't think I paid him when he came over. I don't think he did. He might have taken something; I don't know. But anyway, he didn't help me anymore after that.
Citation information:
Researchers wishing to quote from or reproduce this transcript should request permission to do so from Vice President for Collections, E. Lee Shepard. Preferred citation: Oral history interview with Christine W. Banks, November 28, 2006, Virginia Historical Society, Richmond, VA (Call number Mss3 C8858a).
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